>because people will quit to avoid having such a
>nightmare commute (although Google has basically
>the same commute)

Not for long: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003712850_webgoogle18.html

You're complaining about traffic? Try buying a small condo in Redmond, Kirkland, Bellevue, Issaquah, Sammamish or Seattle. Or try renting. On a new hire's salary.

This will be hurting Microsoft badly in the next few years.

Some Dude - Your comment on purchasing a house is somewhat valid. However, Microsoft pays more than enough to afford renting in the Redmond area. I was a level 59 college hire in late 2001 and had no problems affording rent on my own. Just thank your lucky stars you don't live in California.

Adam - I respect that you are politically liberal. However, I do find your blanket assertion about conservatives' lack of intelligence somewhat insulting. There are completely valid and logical arguments for a conservative position. Personally, I am a conservative and support many of the ideas which you consider to be "crackpot" ones. Just something to consider.

Yeah, I agree with Phil. Nobody really cares about your politics and the assertion that conservatives don't care about the environment, traffic, public transit, is just wrong and a blatant generalization. Your political comments have the effect of trashing your credibility.

uh hot on 520 doesn't really "solve" the 520 problem. it will just shift the acute problem from 520 to i90. so the bug is still active, you've just moved it to a different node in your tree of responsibility

What? People read this blog?

Moishe: That is interesting about Google. With their distributed dev environment, why not open an office on the Seattle side. There actually was a company founded by ex-MSFTers called "Westside", more or less on the basis of "All you cool froods who live in Seattle and don't want to cross 520, come work for us". I think they wound up considering opening an Eastside office to catch people like me who live in the suburbs, but they may have gotten bought out first.

Phil/What: In fact I was not attempting to call all conservatives "crackpots"; it's only the ones that are that I object to. Nonetheless I think it is true that conservatives generally are more anti-tax than liberals, and when they want to spend money on transportation it is for more SOV highway lanes, not more rapid ransit and HOV lanes. And I disagree with that position and don't think there is a defensible argument for it.

I also disagree on political comments trashing my credibility. Not writing what I honestly feel is what trashes my credibility. For example I accused Microsoft of doing something wrong in regards to FIN (nobody in HQ noticed so far). I think this helps my credibility, because when I say something good about Microsoft, it means more.

HOT on 520 will help if it pushes people into carpools or buses. The fact is that if you are driving in an SOV at rush hour, you will be stuck in traffic. What we can do is provide good alternatives so people have an option not to sit in an SOV. Right now the buses on 520 spend part of their time (at the 405 interchange) stuck behind the SOV traffic, so people figure why bother riding the bus. There is the slightly disagreeable aspect of the HOT lanes becoming "Lexus lanes" where people with more money can pay to avoid traffic, but I think this is better than the current situation.

I remember once I was talking to a state representative about allowing people to pay some money and be able to drive in the carpool lanes as an SOV. They were talking about $25 a year!! If I'm stuck and about to miss a baseball game, I'd pay $25 a DAY for the privilege.

- adam

No, try again. Making political statements doesn't trash your cred. But making sweeping generalizations about one party ideology or another does. Especially when done at a high level and without any analysis. That type of comment is only half a step removed from sexist or racist comments.

"That type of comment is only half a step removed from sexist or racist comments."

No it's not. A political ideology is a CHOICE, which you can change if you want, and also choose not to make, and simply state that don't follow any particular ideology. And if you say "I'm a conservative", you are saying you align yourself with the broad conservative philosophy--with sweeping generalizations, in other words. I don't see how someone who claims to be conservative can be insulted by being accused of favoring lower taxes (as an example) when that is one of the things that defines conservatism.

- adam

OK OK. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I certainly did not intend to start a holy war.

Adam - sorry for starting this. I really did not think it would balloon as it did.

Hey, a post that I actually care about :-).

Some interesting thoughts, although putting a traffic signal on what is basically an interstate highway is a tough one (and might have a negative impact on emissions, even if the congestion impact was minimal). There is a drawbridge on I-278 in NYC, but hopefully we'll be getting rid of that in the not too distance future.

It's been a while since I've driven SR-520, but is there a reason (like a physical constraint) why they can't move the entirety of the HOV lanes to the center (which is operationally a much better configuration), to connect with center HOV lanes on the new bridge (if/when it gets built)?

Congestion pricing/HOT lanes are an area where conservatives and liberals tend to have more agreement, since it satisfies the "free market" desires of conservatives and the "promote transit" desires of liberals (but then again, they also both have reasons not to like it). I will say that Washington State has had some pretty amazingly dumb transportation financing decision thurst upon it, mostly via citizen initiatives.

So, what takes longer: designing and building a major new bridge, or designing and programming a new OS?

Phil: Actually I thought that was a pretty calm exchange...anyway no need to feel bad about starting something.

Joe: I-105 in L.A., at its east end, has a metering traffic light on the ramp to northbound I-605. Only turned on as-needed during rush hour. Presumably 520 is part of the NHS but obviously I-105 is also, so I guess a light is allowed in some circumstances.

Right now they can't move the HOV lane west of 405 to the middle because then the shoulder would have to be the second general-purpose lane, and it's not wide enough. There are also some freeway bus stops on the side of 520. I think part of the 520 bridge plan includes widening the highway leading up to the bridge so that wherever they put the HOV lanes they will have decent shoulders. I don't know how wide the highway is now but I suspect each direction is roughly 30 feet wide (2-foot left-hand "shoulder", two 10-foot lanes, and an 8-foot right-hand shoulder/HOV lane) and they would want to make it at least 50 feet wide (10-foot left-hand shoulder, 3 10-foot lanes, 10-foot right-hand shoulder), or maybe even wider if they go with 12-foot lanes. Plus a 14-foot wide bike path. And that's an expensive neighborhood to plow 60+ extra feet of right-of-way through.

Here's a PDF of the bridge plans (not the highway leading up to it): http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/442CFB11-B3B0-47C5-A850-48DD326C1530/0/alternatives_options_intro.pdf. Just changing from 4 lanes to 4 lanes + 2 HOV, with proper shoulders and bike path, widens the bridge from 60 feet now to 133 feet in the new plan.

- adam

Here's another PDF showing the Eastside:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/25DC10A1-9183-4053-A995-D8B5DB191873/0/eastside_alternatives.pdf

Looks like for a 4-lane bridge (that is, just replace the existing one in the same configuration, but make it the right width etc) they would keep the transit stops (thus presumably the HOV lane) on the outside. For the 6-lane bridge (4 GP + 2 HOV), which is what they seem to have settled on, they would move the transit stops on the inside, so presumably the HOV lanes would be on the inside (where I agree they belong).

- adam

People will still not carpool, they'd rather pay the toll and sit alone in their cars then carpool.

Light rail would work better. If we had a good mass transit system, like Toronto or San Francisco or Chicago, we'd be better off.

Also, we need a dictator for a few years who can override all the opposition to the 520 bridge options and just get it built dammit.